Interview with Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa Agha
By The Pakistani Spectator • Jan 13th, 2008 • Category: Interviews, Worth A Second Look • 34 CommentsThe Pakistani Spectator is extremely proud to present an exclusive interview with the pride of Pakistan, heartbeat of nation, and nature’s prize to Pakistan; the one and only Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa Agha, who is an independent security analyst and strategic affairs expert and the author of several books including Military Inc.: Inside Pakistan’s Military Economy.
Could you tell us what made you decide to start writing?
Ans: Writing found me. I didn’t go to it. My mother was a novelist so perhaps writing was in my blood. I started writing fiction at age 10 but then lost the strength to write stories. I still pray for finding the strength to write fiction. I am sure some day fiction will drag me out of my fear.
What do you think sets Your writings apart from others?
Ans: I wouldn’t adopt a comparative framework. Every person has their own perception and contribution. Personally, I work on issues on which not too many academics in Pakistan have done work. You will find newspaper columns but very few books on military and politics.
If you could choose one characteristic you have that brought you success in life, what would it be?
Ans: Research and writing is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. I believe it is consistency and hard work which helps in getting meaningful results. My focus has always remained the people of Pakistan. That is what I draw my inspiration from.
What was the happiest and gloomiest moment of your life?
Ans: Considering what the country is going through these days, most days appear gloomy. On a personal level, it was when I lost my father and then my mother. My happiest day was when my pen opened up again and I started to write fiction again. I am currently working on a novel. The inspiration is two months old. But generally, my happiest moments are when I discover new things with my husband or share a laugh with him.
If you could pick a travel destination, anywhere in the world, with no worries about how it’s paid for - what would your top 3 choices be?
Ans: I would travel to Cholistan (the desert in Southern Punjab), Chile and Innsbruck (Austria)
What is your favorite book and why?
Ans: My all time favorite book is Maxim Gorky’s biography which is actually four books. It is about the life of a very ordinary person and so it encapsulates the extraordinary of the ordinary. The first time I read it was when I was 10 years old. My mother gave me the book and asked me to read it. It was in Urdu. She said read it though you might not fully understand what is in it. I have always gone back to the book in the best and worst of times.
What’s the first thing you notice about a person (whether you know them or not)?
Ans: How do they address others and how do the shoes appear.
Do you think Pakistani politicians could benefit from the social networks like Facebook, Orkut and things like twitter?
Ans: Networking is always a good idea. It is modern day technology which allows you to connect. But face book is also part of people’s private world. It depends if they can connect the private with the public.
Who are your top five favourite writers in the world?
Ans:Maxim Gorky, Milan Kundera, Jamila Hashmi, Isabel Allende and Amin Moluf.
Have you ever become stunned by the uniqueness of any writer?
Ans: Isabel Allende is one of my favorite writers. She knows how to tell a story and weave stories around the politics of her land Chile.
You have also got a writing life, how has it directly affected both your personal and professional life?
Ans: I am a writer so this is both personal and professional. Since I write on military and politics it does have an impact on the personal especially in present day Pakistan where institutions and people seem to confuse nationalism with betterment of the people.
You are the pride of Pakistan, as you have broken the stereotype and have spoken about the unspeakable; What exactly compelled you to do that?
Ans: I am grateful you think this way. The reason I wrote my books was because we need to break taboos and discuss issues which relate to our lives. There was the realization that this country is not about the elite but about the very ordinary and common people. All countries are an asset of the ordinary people. I have not tried to particularly challenge just the military but looked at the elite structure of our socio-economic. I wish people wouldn’t read the book in a hurry or comment on people’s commentary on the book.
What are the inspirations behind your first and second book?
Ans: My first book was drawn on my doctoral work which was on military decision-making in the country. I worked in military accounts then and I found some of the weapons procurement decisions questionable. This lead me to investigate the structure and process of military decision-making. For the second book, my inspiration was primarily to look at the issue of military capital which is not just restricted to Pakistan but can be found all over the world. I wanted to understand the behaviour and impact of this capital especially in a country like ours where the military is a very strong institution.
What Pakistan should do with its nuclear arsenal? Should we freeze it, or roll-back it, or improve it, or just hand it over to IAEA?
Ans: This is a political decision. Any answers must be sought by looking at how a certain technology serves the ordinary people. We have millions who do not have access to clean drinking water, basic health, education and dignity. I wouldn’t have a problem with nuclear weapons as long as the other needs are being met. But if any new technology is used to hold people hostage and make fools out of them, then whats the use.
When President Musharraf says that Pakistan cannot have a democracy and human rights like West, do you agree with him?
Ans: This is absolute nonsense. The ordinary people of Pakistan can decide as intelligently about their political future as an average American or people from developed countries. Our problem lies at the top. Our elite is highly predatory and suicidal. They have evolved a system of patronage and are holding ordinary people hostage to it. General Musharraf is part of that elite. It is ridiculous to hear people say that illiterate Pakistanis cannot chose their leaders. We are not less intelligent than the Indians. It is our tragedy that governments have always been voted in but booted out. Once that changes, we will also become a strong democracy.
What should be the strategy to deal with this rising tide of terrorism in Pakistan.
Ans: Change the system of resource distribution. Our elite is highly predatory and feudal in nature. This includes both civil and military. It also includes professional, educated people from the upper-middle and middle class. The ordinary man has no life. And then comes a mullah who talks about going to heaven by killing others. The prize is that if you go to heaven you will be ahead of your ruler and master. This terrorism is a symbol of hight of desperation in a society where the common man is not respected and has no options but to become a militant. Open possibilities for this ordinary citizen, give him his right to basic facilities and respect and he will not be lured by the mullah.
You’ve written on a very important yet taboo topic in Pakistan; was it hard getting all your data and convincing people to help you?
Ans: Obtaining the data wasn’t easy. I started working on this in 1998. The benefit I had was that I was with military accounts and defense audit departments during that period and later went to work as Director of Naval Research. It helped me get the contacts to access the data. Also, there was some breakthrough in terms of five years of data of some of the major military foundations. Some people helped because they thought it would be a service to the nation to highlight what was going on. I could access the audit reports as well which constantly talked about how money and resources of the state were siphoned off to keep these organizations running. The data and information is spread all over the place. I did about 100 interviews and they were at the time willing to talk because they presented their point of view. The military basically expected that it will just be there point of view which will be presented minus any analysis. They now have problem with the analysis.
How has the reaction been from the government and the military towards you after the launch of the book?
Ans: I didn’t expect the government to go to the limit to which they did. I thought that they would probably publish some articles and commentaries against me. However, they not onl tried to ban the launch of the book, they tried to stop the distribution of the book. It is still not available in many places. The people of course were happy that such a closed subject was being discussed. My gripe is that people who are for military’s power and those who are against it are not reading the book. My basic argument is that this military economy is part of an elite economy. The military built its empire with help from a large number of other elite groups from the civil society as well. People are unfortunately commenting on the commentaries on the book.
Did it ever scare you about the consequences of publishing such a book would have on you and your family?
Ans: I was told by friends in academia that I shouldn’t write it. Perhaps, if I thought too much about what would happen I might have been scared. I just shut my eyes, reposed faith in God and worked because this was not a case of ill-intention towards any one.
How have people generally received your book?
As I said that most people haven’t read the book. There are people who pose to be supra-nationalists and are very angry. They do not understand that even a strong institution must be saved from itself. The military elite is destroying the organization. Then there are the common people who are happy that this issue was finally discussed. What they see around them was finally documented.
What other topics do you think are worth talking about?
Ans: I am currently working on a third book which is on military, state and society in South Asia and it brings the people’s view from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri lanka and Nepal. But that is just my own work. There is need for discussion between the relationship between the US, other western countries and Pakistan. The problem is that the world elite is together in exploiting their own people and the people of our country. We need to talk about those linkages.
What do you do when you are not researching, writing, and rocking the world with your ground-breaking ideas?
Ans: I travel with my husband, collect airplane models and learn tango
Are you working on any future book?
Ans: yes I am working on a book which aims to bring the perspective of marginalized groups in assessing the relationship between military, state and society in South Asia. I am also working on a novel.
What are your future plans?
Ans: My heart is in writing and thats what I will continue to do.
Any Message you want to give to the readers of The Pakistani Spectator?
Ans: Whats more important in life is the people. Concepts like nationalism etc can become distractions. The best way to love this country is when you start thinking about the ordinary people who do not have access to what all of us have. Those who can buy books, read magazines, papers on the internet are still privileged as compared to millions of those who do not have access to basic facilities or do not even have a right to live. Please reach out to those Pakistanis.
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October 26th, 2008
READ THE ARTICLE that EXPOSES Ayesha Siddiqa’s lies & distortions:
http://presidentmusharraf.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/ayesha-siddiqas-military-inc-a-deflective-and-derogatory-book/
October 26th, 2008
LATEST : A REFUTTAL to —> “Ayesha Siddiqa’s MILITARY INC: A Deflective and Derogatory Book”
Dr Ayesha Siddiqa’s ‘The Military Inc.’ is a book deflective of reality, highly derogatory and against the very notion of sovereignty. Dr Ayesha Siddiqa launches the book by giving the impression that her intention is to cover the entrepreneurial activities of military worldwide. However, in depth reading reaffirms suspicions that her book massively targets the Pakistan Military and the top echelons of the Armed Forces, most of which are based upon self serving assumptions and intentional hoodwinking.
The publication of Dr Ayesha Siddiqa’s own book ‘Military Inc’ in 2007, in President Musharraf’s era, repudiates her claims to term the military rule as manipulative and suppressive. Dr Ayesha Siddiqa wrote a whole book, to malign a system (MILBUS) whose worth does not exceed 0.8% of Pakistan’s free market economy.
PASS THE TRUTH: http://presidentmusharraf.wordpress.com/
May 5th, 2008
The politics of Military’s Economy in Pakistan
Dr Ayesha Siddiqa Agha, Interview by Irshad Saleem
Dr Ayesha Siddiqa did her doctorate from King’s College, London in 1996 and has worked on issues varying from military expenditure, defence decision-making, nuclear deterrence, arms procurement, arms production to civil-military relations in South Asia. She is also a Ford Fellow and more recently Pakistan Scholar at t he Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars.
She began her professional career with the Pakistan navy as the Director of Naval Research, making her the first civilian and woman to work at that position in Pakistan’s defence establishment. She writes for various international journals such as: Journal of Asian Affairs, Journal of the European Institute of Asian Studies, Jane’s Defence Weekly and the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Her major publication to date is the book Pakistan’s Arms Procurement and Military Buildup, 1979-99: In Search of a Policy (Palgrave Press, 2001).
Here is an interview for despardes.com Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa about her book she is working on “Military Inc, The Politics of Military’s Economy in Pakistan”.
Question: So what is this book about?
Dr. Siddiqa: This book is about military business operations with a case study of Pakistan.
Question: So what prompted you to write this book?
Dr. Siddiqa: I was a civil servant. During the course of my work I had to deal with numbers of military spending and doing that one slowly realized that a lot was hidden. It is the search for numbers that took me in this direction. The other thing is that it is essential to understand the dynamics of the institution that virtually controls Pakistan’s past, present and future.
Question: Ok, so who did you work for as a civil servant?
Dr. Siddiqa: I joined the civil service in 1988 and left in 2001. Served in military accounts, defence audit and later the navy.
Question: Going back to the Pakistan army’s business, what are your findings?
Dr. Siddiqa: Several. First, the military has become predatory engaging in political and economic predation. Second, political predation is not complete without economic predation. Third, military has mutated into a separate class that shares interests with other members of the ruling elite. Finally, because the military protects its vested interests, it leads to alienation of the masses.
Question: When did all this start?
Dr. Siddiqa: It dates back to the early 1950s. The business ventures were started with the establishing of the first foundation called the Fauji Foundation in 1953. This was established with the war veteran’s rehabilitation fund of Rs. 18 million.
Question: Why do you consider forming Fauji Foundation a predatory step by the army?
Dr. Siddiqa: Listen you have to understand the concept. A politically strong entity that engages in political predation needs to feel economically or financially autonomous. This completes the picture of predation. The generals thought that they wanted to establish independent means of providing for their welfare and not depending on the civilians like it happened in India. The financial autonomy gradually created the logic for greater interest in political control.
Question: Give me one or two instances when the 1953 move swirled into predation.
Dr. Siddiqa: It started right then with Ayub Khan and his cabal getting agricultural land and establishing independent means for themselves.Look at Ayub Khan. He not only got several squares of agricultural land in Sindh, he also established his sons into business. Look at the entire lot of generals at the moment. A Major General has a legal worth of about Rs. 300 million [Rs. 30 crores]. These are conservative estimates.
Question: Going back to Pakistan army’s economic superpower…What percentage of the GDP and GNP is it?
Dr. Siddiqa: This is difficult to calculate but their own estimates are about 4 % of GDP. I would say that their share in private sector assets is about 7-10 percent of private sector assets. This is a large number for any single group.
Question: Can you translate that into crores?
Dr. Siddiqa: 7-10 percent of private sector assets cannot be translated but I can give you another figure: They are worth about Rs. 200 billion. It is just the business. If you put in real estate then we are talking about a Rs 1 trillion plus economy.
Question: You mean Pakistan army’s side economy?
Dr. Siddiqa: Yes. This includes real estate, businesses done by subsidiaries, organizations and individuals. You have to understand that this economy is predatory by nature because it does not accept any form of civilian control over it. It is independent in terms of planning, appropriation of funds, etc.
Question: If Pakistan army’s assets total Rs 1 trillion can they fund Pakistan’s annual budget wholly or partially if they have to?
Dr. Siddiqa: This would, converting these resources into liquid assets and then it would be possible to pay. A lot of these resources are state resources that could provide for military expenditure and more. It is difficult to say that this money would fund the entire budget. Of course, it can but over what period? These assets were acquired over time and their value should be added to the annual defence budget.
Question: What was the defence budget for the year 2001?
Dr. Siddiqa: 131 billion. If you add these numbers the budget would escalate to over Rs. 400 billion
Question: When you left in 2001 how many generals, etc were there who form the command structure of Pakistan forces?
Dr. Siddiqa: Brigadier and up would be a few hundred.
Question: So if we assume 100 then 100 times 300 million = 30 billion is the legal worth of army’s command structure correct?
Dr. Siddiqa: it is more but don’t get into these fancy numbers… Plus the higher you go the more pricy you become. A full general is worth Rs 500 million [Rs. 50 crores] plus.
Question: How much land does the forces own in each province?
Dr. Siddiqa: Difficult to bifurcate but to give you a taste - they own about 7-9 million acres in Punjab alone
Question: What percentage is it of whole of Punjab?
Dr. Siddiqa: I am still trying to figure this out. It is not an issue of what percentage is this of Punjab but that a major portion of state land is appropriated by one group
Question: What about Sindh?
Dr. Siddiqa: My sense is that it is less in Sindh
Question: Why is that?
Dr. Siddiqa: Most of the land is around the 2 barrages constructed after independence. Because they didn’t make new barrages.
Question: What is their modus operandi in getting these lands allotment?
Dr. Siddiqa: 10 % of land, according to the 1912 Colonization of Land Act, is allotted to the military
Question: 10% everywhere?
Dr. Siddiqa: Yes it would be everywhere land is found. Colonization of land refers to each land reclaimed due to creation of water channels and other irrigation projects. However, they tend to get more in Punjab
Question: Does India have this act too?
Dr. Siddiqa: No. They got rid of such acts when they did land reforms. Remember India is a state moving towards capitalism. A capitalist state would not create means for institutionalizing feudalism
Question: Are you saying Pakistan army has institutionalized feudalism?
Dr. Siddiqa: I am saying that it is a feudal institution as well
Question: So in that case their interests converge with feudal system correct?
Dr. Siddiqa: Yes
Question: Do you think they resisted land reform along with the feudal?
Dr. Siddiqa: I wouldn’t say that they resisted but they had sufficient stakes not to pursue a policy that had a negative impact on their benefits. For example, who buys the land the Faujis sell? The local feudal or the new rural capitalist class that is equally feudal in nature. Why should the officers then try to destroy the class that bails them out financially. After 1999, generals have started to keep their lands
Question: What happened after 1999
Dr. Siddiqa: Since the value of land has gone up, especially after 9/11, generals now keep lands and have turned into absentee land lords
Question: Why did the value of land in Pakistan go up after 9/11
Dr. Siddiqa: Because of the money that started to flow in from Pakistani expatriates plus other Muslim countries
Question: What is their modus operandi in getting these lands allotted to generals individually and to their housing societies collectively?
Dr. Siddiqa: The provincial governments allot the land to the Ministry of Defence who then gives the land to the three services for further dispersal. The land is also given to the Jawans but the quantity is lesser than what is given to the senior officers. Plus, the generals get greater facilities in making the land cultivable.
Question: All this is based on 1912 colonization of land act that India got rid of and Pakistan still has?
Dr. Siddiqa: Yes, but they have done alterations as well. For instance, the act does not say that land meant for operational purpose be appropriated for personal use. It is against the law
Question: Are you saying that land meant for operational purposes are or have been appropriated to the generals for personal use or to the housing societies?
Dr. Siddiqa: Of course. All land in the cities is military land turned into housing colonies
Question: What is the conclusion of your book?
Dr. Siddiqa: Simple: The political leadership in Pakistan has to negotiate the military’s gradual withdrawal from the economy if they want democratic institutions to grow
Question: At what value does the army buy land?
Dr. Siddiqa: Between Rs. 30-60 per acre. In some cases they pay more. This refers to the private housing schemes
Question: You mean in Defence Society in Karachi, the army gets land from the provincial govt for 30 to 60 rupees an acre only?
Dr. Siddiqa: There are 2 methods for getting land. All the military land converted for personal use is given at the ridiculous price I quoted. Then there are other schemes where they pay a little more. For instance, the Cantonment Board distributed plots of 500 yards each by appropriating part of the parking lot of the Karachi stadium. Each plot was for about Rs 600,000
Question: What was the fair market value of each plot at that time?
Dr. Siddiqa: One and a half crore
Question: Who got these plots?
Dr. Siddiqa: Generals. The bulk goes to generals. This was done by General Tauqeer Zia. As Chairman Cricket Control Board he authorized himself to return this land that once belonged to the Cantonment Board for further distribution
Question: Any more instances of such land grabbing?
Dr. Siddiqa: The entire Lahore Cantonment was turned into housing schemes. In fact, except for Defence phase I & II (Lahore), the rest of the land does not even belong to the military
Question: How many acres is Lahore Cantonment, if you know?
Dr. Siddiqa: About 8000 to 10,000.
Question: What is its fair market worth now
Dr. Siddiqa: Runs into billions. It should be around Rs. 700 billion
Question: What was the “grabbing price”
Dr. Siddiqa: As I said, Rs. 30-60. This is the rate that officers pay.
February 6th, 2008
salam.this wa a great interview and i m sgree with that.
i would like to say that pakistan is in independent country and we have every thing but we have a lack of good leadership..and i pray to my GOD to give us a nice leader which is sincere to our mother land..i hope u will discuss something important about pakistan cueernr situation again..
January 31st, 2008
Amazing work guys. It was nice to read an informal interview about the lady.
January 30th, 2008
To Nash: Esteemed Dr. Ayesha has answered your questions, and we have included them in her interview. Thanks for your questions.
To All: Thanks.
January 30th, 2008
Well done TPS, thats quite a feat. I really liked it where she said in an answer.., “Whats more important in life is the people. Concepts like nationalism etc can become distractions. The best way to love this country is when you start thinking about the ordinary people who do not have access to what all of us have.”
January 30th, 2008
Needless to say that it was wonderful to have someone like you here. It was a pleasure to read your interview as well.
January 30th, 2008
Well done TPS for arranging interview with Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa. I’m personally very afraid of Pakistan’s future. If you remember one world map that was issued by US, in which Pakistan was not present and running situation in Pakistan………. You ll find answer. May Allah keep us safe and unite.
January 30th, 2008
In all the prevailing gloom and doom, people like Dr. Ayesha are a real glimmer of hope for the deprived people of Pakistan. She may not be present in Pakistan, but the people of Pakistan are optimistic about her being present amongst them some day inshaAllah. We would like to see her in a much bigger role, a role to create a transformation of our masses for better. She is adored by every sane citizen of Pakistan as she has risen against the status-quo and that too in a big big way.
May Allah keep you safe and sound!
January 30th, 2008
Aashique Of Musharraf
how is independent in this country, I view even Musharraf is a slave here.
January 30th, 2008
Hope Ms Ayesha will answer all the questions by answer to question # 2 is as follows:
There was a directive vide inter office memos by their MDs/CEOs in military organizations that each employee should present such organizations to improve the status of the organizations, and MDs/CEOs strongly denied the elegations. between the lines one may get the real meaning of such orders
January 30th, 2008
AoA,
Ms. Ayesha Siddiqa has shown the bravery to do what every man in our country fears of doing: exposing the corrupt in our country. And she did a remarkable job at that too. Its great that TPS has honored that and did an interview with her. But to be honest, I am a bit disappointed at TPS; the interview leaves so much to be desired. It looks more like a few fan questions. It would’ve been great if she was asked these questions:
Q: You’ve written on a very important yet taboo topic in Pakistan; was it hard getting all your data and convincing people to help you?
Q: How has the reaction been from the government and the military towards you after the launch of the book?
Q: Did it ever scare you about the consequences of publishing such a book would have on you and your family?
Q: How have people generally received your book?
Q: What other topics do you think are worth talking about?
Ms. Ayesha, if you are reading this; we would love to hear your response
January 30th, 2008
Salim,
Shahid Masood is jobless now. I heard he was kicked out from Geo as well due to his one-sided political analysis. Of course, he was not deliberately doing it but if someone like him having such a strong political affilation (with some party …PPP) he could not present a balanced and neutral programme on current political scenario. This is exactly the same case as of Ayaz Mir (PML-N).
If people like these, reprsenting GEO and Dawn on national or international level, we must stop making propaganda for independent and Free Media. All TV channel’s anchors should be neutral, un-biased, unprejudiced persons without any past political affilation with any any Party. Then only we have truly free media in Pakistan. So this is two sided story.