Age of Prohpet Christ
By Tariq • Jul 12th, 2008 • Category: Misc • 70 Comments •
Last 5 posts by Tariq
- Imamoon Kay Daway - July 27th, 2008
- Qaum Ki Yadasht - June 9th, 2008
- Muhaqiq Nabi - II - May 15th, 2008
- Muhaqiq Nabi - May 1st, 2008
- Justice Iftikhar Chaudhary - April 23rd, 2008
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Ahmadis have got a Tall Claim?
You must have heard about Ahmadis or Ahmaddiya Movement in Islam. Who are they and they stand for what? It is said that it is some thing very big that they are claiming for? They claim that the ‘Promised Messiah’ who is eagerly awaited by the whole world is very much here? It is a very tall claim. I think we all should know about that:
Ahmadis claim to be a reformed Muslims lot and as good a human being as they should be. Ahmadiyya claim in Islam is like the claim of Christianity; as it was founded after Judaic era. Jesus* came as reformer of Judaic but Judaic failed to recognise him and put him on the crux (cross) to die a humiliating death. Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad* of Qadian (India) proclaimed himself to be the promised Messiah, in late 19th century. He also proclaimed that he is the same Messiah, the Mahdi; the awaited one, in Islam as prophesied by Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) and by all the earlier scriptures and the prophets prior to Islam.
In fact Ahmadis also carry the same ‘template of divine will’ in Islam as that of followers of Jesus* had gone through then. Mocking, persecution, subjugation and act of their nihilism by fellow Muslims in Pakistan and else where are the same practices being carried out by the assailants against them as it was done in the by gone days of old denominations.
It’s God’s design that after every unholy mess and adversity; He picks up a dedicated lot from among the people to come up and strive in His cause and His blissful streams starts flowing again; turning into rivers and expanding and out stretching to the vastness of the oceans. After Christianity; Islam has progressed in leaps and bounds and is very much recognised and being practiced in all the four corners of the earth.
As in the case of Judaic they needed reformation and Jesus* was sent; Like wise the Muslim as prophesied by Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) had also come to a state that their plight was now demanding a thorough reformation. God Almighty choose Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad* of Qadian of India to come and reform the mankind. To point out where Muslims have gone wrong and give them the glad tiding of rehabilitation under the ‘Ahmadiyya Banner’ in Islam. [Koran says in chapter2: v63] ‘Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.’
Like Jesus*, the promised Messiah; Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed was also outright rejected by the orthodox Muslims. Ahmadiyya history is full of turmoil but by the grace of God: today Ahmadis have turned into a strong vibrant society with a following of some 3 millions through out the World.
To learn more about Ahmadiyya and Promised Messiah; please refer to following link; http://www.alislam.org/library/messiah.html; We may find all the answers about Jesus* and his age etc.
Their motto is; Love for all, Hatred for none
(* May Allah be pleased with them)
A Khokar,
Few years ago, someone asked me if I was a reformed, orthodox or a progressive Muslim. Initially, I was shocked that how another Muslim could ask me this question. Reflecting more on this, I concluded the statements by that Muslim, I realized that this is no different than what the Jews/Christians have done to themselves over history. Now to read your words “reformed Muslims”, you are doing no different than others have over history of mankind.
I am not like others that will question anyone’s faith, each human is accountable to God. In light of this, as “Muslims” we do have certain guidelines that have been set down in our faith of Islam. The very basics being the pillars and following the sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). I am not going to debate on this subject but ask you to comment to the statements from this site, on the Ahmadiyya movement:
http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/qadiani.htm
Do not be offended, and take a look. You will find direct quotations from Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Al-Qadiani with references. Please take your time and read with an open mind, as I have of the website you presented above.
Allah knows best!
I have come of age but consider myself still a student of comparative studies especially in the field of religion. Why so; because to study and take your right pick is the phenomena of our life span here on this planet. To study and evaluate till one reaches the grave is must.
You have asked me to go through some, references in the field of Islamic studies conducted by our clerics. I appreciate that and am very much thankful to you for your kind suggestions and stay obliged. But I also know that the top zealots and stalwarts in the religion of Judaic could not recognise their reformer Jesus* present among them. They opted for the extreme in the persecution on his declaration of prophet hood and sent the Jesus* to die a humiliating death on the cross. So it can be very conveniently said that research and acquired degree of knowledge even the deep study of religion may not serve any purpose; or lead you to the right path. To guide some one to right path rests with Allah. Quran tells us the tales that how wrong Jews were in their resolve and How Allah got angry with them and put them under His wrath.
For your any specific question; I will do my best and will be more than happy to provide you the references.
Regards
I appreciate your quick reply and I am more surprised that you would allude to that Prophet Isa (Jesus) (pbuh) died. Allah says in the Quran:
“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157).
This very statement refutes the statement of the “death” of Prophet Jesus (pbuh). How can one even use this as a reference to present day Muslim “zealots” as you call them, who refute the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed?
One cannot negate what is in the Quran. The very people you make reference to made that very habit to question not only of Prophet Isa but all the other prophets beforehand. The reminders in the Quran in reference to the Jews, yes was to the Muslims, though to use this to validate the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed are weak. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Sahib was not the first to make such claims and certainly will not be the last.
My own personal experience with followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed has been limited. In 1998, I happened to be in Zurich on a holiday and I asked my Swiss driver to take me to a mosque for Friday prayers. I was taken to the Ahmadiyya Mosque and did not realize the teachings of the Imam, until he started to blast the leaders in Pakistan. At that time, Nawaz Sharif was still in power and the Imam, filled most of the khutba on how evil he was and other leaders in Pakistan have been. Still I was lost and I finished my prayers and walked down stairs from the prayer area to my car. I saw then the photographs of the leader of the Ahmadiyya, in the staircase, with many leaders from around the world. Upon my return to the USA, I made further inquiries of the Ahmadiyya movement. I read and heard of how they were persecuted in Pakistan and the leadership is based now in the West. It is very unfortunate but to use this difference and persecution as an excuse for prophethood, which clearly negates the Quran, does not hold has a strong basis for belief in this movement.
I have shared enough. You are a learned person of wisdom, and I wanted to share with you of how others see this Ahmadiyya movement. I did want a more detailed response but like so many people, you deferred the subject to something else and cannot answer.
I sincerely wish you well and peace!
Regards
Dear Dr Alshaer,
Thanks a lot for your kind response. You kind attention is invited to my last submission that there, I did not say that Jesus* died on the cross but he was put on the cross to die a humiliating death as a sentence awarded by the zealots of the time in the religion for his declaration that he had come as a prophet and reformer. They had taken him an apostate. This is for sure that he did not die on the cross. I am sorry that probably I could not explain it in there very well that you some how took it as I am also deluded like Jews (God forbid) that Jesus died on the cross. Quran clearly states; [4:157] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:158] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4:159] And there is none among the People of the Book but will continue to believe in it before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them.
God had sent Jesus as a reformer for all the 12 tribes (sheep) of House of Israel and initially after his declaration of prophet hood at the age of 30 till he attained his age of 33 that he remained there among three tribes only; where as other nine tribes had not yet visited by him to complete his assigned job. In between came, the ordeal of his crucifixion but that does not mean that he had not to complete his Job. The other 9 tribes had since migrated to the lands in the north and beyond Euphrates as the furious Aryan forces weary of Israelites earlier had forced them out. To escape the onslaught of Aryans and others these tribes had migrated to the area like northern Iran, across Herat in Afghanistan till they had reached in Kashmir. As we know some of the name of area in Afghanistan and NWFP in Pakistan; Musa Khel, Esa Khel, the mountain like Koh-e-Suleman and various tribe in Afghanistan bear the Judaic names. The people, their traditions, conduct of businesses, their figures all resemble the Judaic. This is some thing different that we may not know and may carry a different myth or belief but probably can’t deny the facts. It is not expected of prophet of God that he does not complete his assigned job.
Jesus is last reported that he has his tomb in Mohala/street Khan Yar in Sirinagar Kashmir-(India.). He died there at the age of 120 years.
Any how I feel sorry that your encounter with Ahmadiyya Jammat at a mosque in Zurich at a Jumma Prayer was very brief. You found that Imam sahib was informing about the latest developments in Pakistan because the source of information then used to be very limited and people house holds/ members were affected back home. Ahmadiyya mosque are more like community centres serving the community; unlike the traditional Sunnies mosques; in Ahmadiyya mosques or centres prayers and congregation are one of the aspect. Then it was not like present day that we have got in Europe like Geo TV or ARY on sky channels and remain informed.
One may be all out to refute the claim of the Gentleman his Eminence Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as) but what happens if he happens to be right; like the Jesus (as)?
You may ask any question and to start with; please do give out which is the most pressing for you?
Regards
* peace be upon him
A Khokar, I wish to know if Mirza Ghulam Ahmed did claim being himself a prophet in so many words or he claims to be an Imam of sorts, moreover is it the basis of Ahmadis belief or do they claim him Imam etc. If my enquiry is not offensive in anyway and you like to inform I will be obliged.
A Khokar,
I respectfully disagree with you, for you are distorting the verses of Quran in respect to the “death” of Prophet Isa (pbuh). There is no disagreement that Prophet Isa (pbuh) will return and pass away by natural death prior to the Day of Judgment. The disagreement is if this Day of Judgment has already come upon us, and our holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) gave clear signs of this (i.e, dajjal and the coming of the mehdi along with Prophet Isa (pbuh) coming down from the heavens and refuting the claims of him being a son of God and that he will pray behind the mehdi and pass away in a natural death).
I am not going to even comment on the issue of place of death or the age of Prophet Isa (pbuh), for no where in the Quran or even from the accounts of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) states this. By speculating on this, we are negating what the Quran does not state. Islam is not based upon just one’s views, certain guidelines are essential of what distinguish us as Muslims.
These conjectures and speculation by the Ahmadiyya movement have been stated in the website I presented for your review:
http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/
For those seeking an understanding of the Ahmadiyya movement, they can research on their own, of what has been openly debated upon of the differences and false claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. I do not wish to cut and paste the statements made on the islamicweb.com site, for this the reader should make that effort, if they are sincerely looking for answers.
The key differences are broken down into three section on the website:
1). Qadianism in the Light of Islam
2). Mirza Qadani’s Anti-Islamic Claims
3). Mirza Qadani in the Mirror of his own writings
and after reading those sections, do read the section on “Who is Imam Al-Mahdi” for this will also dispel a lot of misunderstandings in reference to the coming of the mehdi that exist among many Muslims.
May Allah guide us all in better understanding of our faith.
And Allah knows best!
Regards
Dear Aftab S. Aslam and friends,
It is totally not offensive at all to know and dig the truth out. Aftab, you might have read the above post where I tried to describe that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed* ’s case is like Jesus* case. That at the time of appearance of Jesus*the Judaic denomination had grown some 1200 years old and was duly matured. The research and study in the fields of religion was at its peak climax. There were many a inspiring zealots that they have got enormous following among the Judaic denomination practicing their prescribed teachings. Israelites over the passage of time were found divided into many sects as we have got presently in Muslim Ummah. There were many myths and concocted terms and traditions initiated and devised by the Judaic zealots that their sects used to follow. The time had come that there was a dire need of their reformation to bring them back on the original tracks. So Jesus was sent*.
On the arrival of Jesus*, when the man declared himself prophet; he was out rightly rejected; not by the common man in the street but by the zealots in the religion ( the so called principal contractors of religion). It clearly shows that deep research and study in the field of religion that Judaic were good at; did not facilitated them even to recognise the man sent by God and they awarded him the most humiliating punishment that they could have; i.e. to die a cursed death on crux (cross) because their was a common myth known that who so ever apostate will die a cursed death on cross. But God saved him.
When Allah revealed to Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad that he has been appointed as the Messiah and Mahdi, and the Imam of the day; the resentment was but natural. Because Allah says in Quran; Al-Hijr [15:11] “And there never came to them a Messenger but they mocked at him.” Or in Al-Mu’min [40: 83] “And when their Messengers came to them with manifest Signs, they exulted in the little knowledge they had. And that at which they mocked encompassed them.”
With all the little knowledge that we possess; well we can say that the man is simply an apostate; a liar but if we believe in Allah that He is all knowing, all wise. Allah says in Qaf [50:16] “ And assuredly, We have created man and We know what his mind whispers to him, and We are nearer to him than even his jugular vein.”
We may staunchly follow the myths and other conjectures created by our zealots, most of the time for their own worldly benefits. But we should listen and go by the man sent by Allah and see what does he say and his claim; that, ‘Its is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds”. If he is a righteous person sent by God and we leap forward to accept him outrightly as a true messenger; even then we may not worry; because Allah clearly says in Al-Haqqah:
[69:44] “And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to US,”
[69:45] “We would, surely, have seized him by the right hand”
Any how Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed did not bring any new law or the book; He is the guided one and chosen by God to be a reformer. He clarifies, where we have gone wrong. Where as Quran is the Final Book. Allah completed his religion what all he has to give to the mankind in Quran. Allah says in:
Al-Ma’idah[4:3] “…. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion.” And Hazrat Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is the last of law bearing and at its summit he is the seal of all the prophets. Surah Al-Ahzab declares [53:40] “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) stands a source of blessings and mercy for the whole of mankind to come.
When Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed (as) declared himself a reformer and Imam of the day; it broke all the myths of crosses of Christianity as well as various conjectures having creped in the Muslim Ummah. We need to listen to this man least we also stand doomed like the old denominations. Where as Allah is with him and that he declares; ‘Allah is sufficient as a protector for a man’. Invariably
there are many obstacle in the way as Allah says in Al-Hajj [22:52] “ Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before thee, but when he sought to attain his object, Satan put obstacles in the way of what he sought after. But Allah removes the obstacles that are placed by Satan. Then Allah firmly establishes His Signs. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.”
If we find Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed (as) as true Imam of the day, a reformer sent by Allah; we must pray to Allah for our guidance and then leap forward to accept him with true hearts.
Because Allah says in Al-Baqarah [2:256] “ There is no compulsion in religion. Surely, the right way has become distinct from error; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing. All-Knowing.”
With best of regards
Dear Aftab S Alam,
I apologise for wrongly printing you name as; ‘Aftab S. Aslam.
Regards
Dear Dr Alshaer ,
Where as I whole heartedly respect the studies and research of elites in Islamic studies but fact remains that it is their own biased opinions. Most of the times, it is based on their preconceived ideas and myths that they follow.
True guidance is with Allah; He bestowed to whome he likes. Truth is always distinct from falsehood. Allah says in Al-Anbiya’ [21:18] “Nay, We hurl the truth at falsehood, and it breaks its head, and lo! it perishes.”
Lets keep on weighing between truth and falsehood and keep on praying that Allah guides us to the right path. Allah says in Al-Nisa [4:69] “And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings - the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And an excellent company are they.”
Please note that verse says; ‘this prophet’ followed by….. the term ‘Prophets’
With best of regards
Dear A Khokar,
Let’s agree, to disagree on this subject.
Regards
Dr, Alshaer,
dr alshaer,
Thank you very much for your time.
But Doctor sahib abhee say;
Abhi to Raat baqi thi; Abhi tu Baat baqi thi?
I came up to share with you only, which I knew the best.
[Shaed is rah peh koi aur bhi rahee ain–
Dhoop main chalta rahoun; saeay bichataa jaoun]
Any how I remain obliged. Your kind participation on other subjects will be much appreciated.
Regards
Dear Tariq Sahib,
We have been since discussing here, your given questioner. Would you also like to come in please and how would you like to proceed?
Regards
Khokar,
It means that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was Prophet and Imam Mehdi at the same time?
Please do not reply with lengthy answer as I will not be able to digest it. Just be precise.
Dear Mustafa,
Imam Mahdi (as) is supposed to be prophet of Allah. And yes the man claimed himself the Imam of the day; Promised Messiah and Mahdi.
With best of regards
No wonder Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was called a liar!
I am sorry A Khokar Sahib, you have very little understanding of the Quran and the very principle that Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was the seal of the prophets and the last messenger of Allah. If you cannot understand this very essential element of being a Muslim, nothing more needs to be said to you.
Dear Dr Alshaer,
There is no monopoly in religion; Allah Almighty himself has his sole jurisdiction to whom so ever, he bestow with the true guidance. Yes as a Muslim; it all revolve around the understanding of Quran and we will be held responsible the way we understand it and conduct our lives.
I think this may not be right to say that our opponent does not bear the right understanding or has a little understanding of Quran. History shows that studies, even the deep studies and initiation of well publicized books of Tafseers etc and be called as zealots (Jayed Ullema) to thrust their authorities. It has often proved to be fatal. Examples are with us; when, as said earlier, the zealots of Judaic, so called Jayed ullema of the time were unable to recognise the God sent reformer Jesus (as). Quran tells us that; how wrong they were and as a consequences were subjected to wrath of God. Muslim lot has also not been able to recognise their own Mehdi and Messiah, Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed (as) except the few.
I was totally perplexed the other day; when some time back, I was watching an interview of Sir David Attenborough, who is an authority on the life of mammals and plants and the life on this planet. ‘The private life of plants’, ‘The living planet’ happens to be best of his works produced by the ‘BBC natural history unit’s wildlife specials’. Sir David Attenborough studies on nature are thought to be the hallmarks on this planet but when in an interview conducted by William Anderson was asked; does he believe in God? His reply was; He does not believe in God!
How fatal our studies and research can be?
Any how; there supposed to be not any hard feeling about this belief business. Every body carries ones own burden and will be asked by God Almighty accordingly. No Mullah or Pir or any other zealot may save any one from the verdict given by God on the day of judgement. There are no disputes or quarrels about the beliefs. Truth stays distinct from false hood; Allah says in Al-Shura [42:15]”…..Allah is our Lord and your Lord. For us is the reward of our works, and for you the reward of your works. There is no quarrel between us and you. Allah will gather us together, and to Him is the return.’
Keeping in view the present state of Muslims; Ahmadis are pleased with this glad tiding of Allah; that Almighty has bestowed them with the blessing of Imam of the day and they are the chosen people. Allah saysin Al-Ma’idah [5:54] “ O ye who believe! whoso among you turns back from his Religion, then let him know that Allah will soon bring in his stead a people whom He will love and who will love Him and who will be kind and humble to the believers, and hard and firm against the disbelievers. They will strive in the cause of Allah and will not fear the reproach of a fault-finder. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whomsoever He pleases and Allah is Bountiful, All-Knowing.
Allah only is the best of friend
——————————————
Love for all, Hatred for None
Dear A Khokar Sahib,
I made a lot of reflection since my last post here. I have no right to say to you, of what you know or do not know. Certainly you can quote the Quran to your needs and are a man of the letters. We disagree on some very fundamental issues of what distinguishes us as Muslims.
I can and am able to make very direct references to the lies of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and his false teachings but I shall not. Allah has given me some wisdom not to engage in useless debates which have no end.
All I can do is make a prayer for you and others that follow this false “prophet/messiah/mehdi”, that Allah guides you to the right path, ameen. In the end, on the Day of Judgment, no one will be able to bear false witness.
Allah knows best!
Regards
Please see the program “End of Times” by Dr. Shahid Masood. It is easily available in CD’s. It will give you idea that when Imam Mehdi will come and what will be ground realities of that time. Imam Medhi won’t be prophet. same with Hazrat Essa. He will come as follower of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W).
It is very good program from general knowledge. Based on Quran verses and Aahees.
A Khokar Says:
July 19th, 2008
Dear Mustafa,
Imam Mahdi (as) is supposed to be prophet of Allah. And yes the man claimed himself the Imam of the day; Promised Messiah and Mahdi.
Please explain… you means he was prophet. Na Auzobillah.
Dear Dr. Alshaer,
Aap ki apni adalat; aap ka hoo jo Faisla.
Magar who; faisla oas Akharee Taqdeer Ka
With best of Regard
Saleem, I do not wish to really engage in this debate further but if you are really interested to investigate more about this movement, check this site:
http://alhafeez.org/rashid/
It is best to learn about this movement and come to your own understanding. The teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani clearly negate the Quran and the finality of our holy Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). One can only pray that the followers of the Ahmadiyya movement can come to better understanding of Islam, ameen.
Allah knows best!
Dear Khokar Sahib,
As I have said before to you, you are gifted man of letters. In the end, it is not going to be about our words, but what our intentions and actions have been.
Warm regards
Dear Mustafa,
Imam Mahdi (as) is supposed to be prophet of Allah. And yes the man claimed himself the Imam of the day; Promised Messiah and Mahdi.
With best of regards
Thanks for the concise answer! Well I am very new to this subject and do not know anything about Qadyanism.
So that man did not claim to be the prophet? He just claimed to be the Imam Mahdi!
By the way who supposed that Imam Mahdi (RA) is a prophet?
Regards
Comment from A Khokar:
Dear Mustafa,
Imam Mahdi (as) is supposed to be prophet of Allah. And yes the man claimed himself the Imam of the day; Promised Messiah and Mahdi.
With best of regards
Thanks for the concise answer! Well I am very new to this subject and do not know anything about Qadyanism.
So that man did not claim to be the prophet? He just claimed to be the Imam Mahdi!
By the way who supposed that Imam Mahdi (RA) is a prophet?
Regards
Khokar,
One more question and it requires very short answer:
1) It is obvious that you do not believe that Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) is the last prophet, what is your belief on the following:
a) Authenticity of Quran
b) Authenticity of ‘Sahih’ Hadith
Our future communication would be based on your answer.
Dear Saleem Khan,
This will be my pleasure to furnish any required information that you may ask and that I know about the Imam (as) of the time.
There has been a discussion as you can see here given above, for last few days and I think that enough material is available, at least to form a positive base for any further deliberations. Please go through; you may find some answers. In any case if you have got any more to know; please do say so!
Any how about the prophet hood of Imam Mahdi (as); what I understand that any one who happens to be the recipient of revelation from God is called as Nabi- the Prophet. Since Imam Mahdi, the promised Messiah of the Muslim Ummah is supposed to be the chosen one by God and will certainly receive His numerous revelations for the conduct of his assigned business /tasks, so the great man will certainly be called a Nabi- Prophet.
Next comes, our common perception that Rasool-e Karim Muhammad (SAW) is called as Khatum un nabiyeen. It is commonly believed that he is the last of the prophets of God and after him probably no prophet may come for ever. This is an area where one has to go the road of logic and reasoning that what could be the most befitting true meanings meeting the requirement and status of the title of Khatum un Nabiyeen. ( Jo keh shayan e shan ho). From Ahmadiyya point of view, what I understand is that Khatum un Nabiyeen means the nabi who is atop of all other Anmbiyas. His great ness is in his lofty exalted station as a Nabi par excellence; the man of grace and source of blessing bestowed by God for the entire mankind. The Quran says in Al-Anbiya’ [21:107] “And We have not sent thee but as a mercy for all peoples”. He may not be the one who some how is the one who becomes the identity that all the further blessings that this planet must receive, in shape of Prophets of God for this universe are ceased altogether and for ever.
The word ‘khatum’ has the connotation of i.e. as Rustam-e- zamman or ‘Hatim Taie’ that means that they excel in their respective conduct. Rassol-e- Karim (pbuh) once said about Hazrat Ali karam Allah wajahu that as I am khatum un nabiyeen; Ali is Khatum ul Aulia. Has there been no Aluyas Allah after Hazra Ali (as). Certainly yes; There have been many Walis Allah after Hazrat Ali (as). Accodingly Khatum Nabiyeen means the one who was par excellence the greatest in his status among Anbiyas and he excelled all others.
I hope this will suffice for the time being.
With best of regards.
Dear Mustafa,
Yes Ahmadis are the most dedeicated humble lot in Islam. They whole heartedly believe that Rasool e Karim Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) is Khatum un Nabiyeen and Quran is their book of Guidane and all the books of Sahi Ahadis give the guide line that they are lead a very successful life in Islam with out any prejudice.
Please go through the above discussion also.You may find some good answers.
With best of regards
The questions I raised in my article didn’t get any answer in the comments made by the proponents of the Jamat-e-Ahmadiya, neither I saw any answer of the questions raised in my previous posts. Can Mr. Khokar be kind enough and let me know as which response he has given to which question in my this article?
In one of my previous article (http://www.pakspectator.com/jamat-e-ahmadiya-ki-haqeeqi-taadad/), I said that Jamat-e-Ahmadiya claim the number of its followers as 23 crore , and now Mr. Khokar is saying that the number of Jamat-Aymadiya is 3 million.
What about those millions of people, which Jamat-e-Ahmadiya claim to include in their Jamat every year?
Dear A khokar, after going through the contextual theme of the floated discussion and its idea on the issue, I have no reservation but to assume that preparation for the subject is a very important essential as basic so to exercise the preconceive mind set thereby encountering the upcoming thoughts and questionnaire that would arise in lieu of the discussion, making strategically the part of modus operandi, in a well mannered and concealed environment as covert motive.
Such ideas to spread the motto in the form of slogan of chastity , faith, humble attitude and religious belongings as abstract, so to deliver the theme of bindings as preach, is always perceived when irrational and illogical conclusive discussion takes place on the platform of intellect without the element of annoyance in the name of understanding with regard to discussion, which almost always ends up ,at the portfolio of acceptance or defiance, without the distaste of grievances in the format of well behaved environment, thereby culminating the desired motive in affectionate and satisfactory achievements as assignment.
This is also very true that incidence to initiate war or quarrel some times takes of from the platform of domain outside the catching site of the rivals and a third party acts so to engage and start the issue behind the motive as I can logically perceive after your discussion that a chain of bearing does match your gestures and discussion mode with the respective writer Mr. tariq ,who if I evaluate his 20 articles on TP, I would have no second thought but to express the opinion that a counter coup mechanics are being applied by Mr. tariq to highlight the issue related to qadianism so to explain and preach the theme of religion as a critic and targeting the qadianism thereby motively expressing their version of perceiving Islam and then planting individual like your kind sole to backup and defend the opinion and version ,thereby utilizing the platform of international domain for their illegitimate desire .
You see Mr. Khokar such tactics and strategical move of the offender is never outside the domain of those that have been exposed to such vigilance and monitoring environment.
Although I wanted to indulge in a little bit of discussion with you regarding the issue on logical terms definitely outside the domain of religious bindings and restrictions but after going and assessing your motive to covertly spread the idea of qadianism I have no option but to disregard and disown your thoughts on the issue and would definitely direct the TPS to check the profile of Mr. Tariq as well as the subject is intentionally indulging almost all discussions in the similar theme by floating the idea of qadianism through the plat form. Regards
Dr. Raza: Please refer to my previous articles:
http://www.pakspectator.com/author/tariq/
regards.
Khokar,
Sorry, I have not involved myself to read the lengthy posts that you suggested me to have a look on. Actually, those posts do not start from very basics of your religion. I just want to have the knowledge of your very fundamental beliefs first.
Now, you said that Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) is Khatim-un-Nabiyyeen. Can you please explain the exact translation of these words. Please, I don’t want any Tafseer type translation. What I want is the exact meaning of word “Khatim-un” and the exact meaning of the word “Nabiyyeen”.
Thanks
Number of Ahmadies spread through out the Globe
In comments no1 on Jul 16,2008
Please read;
For : 30 Millions
Please Read: 130 millions (subject to change)
Omission is regretted
Regards
Dear Mustafa,
You asked for it.
KHATUM
The way I understand; ‘khatum’ means the man who excels all others in a certain field and is placed very high par excellence. Like Gama Pehlawan was awarded the honourable name of Rustam e Zamaan that there was no match to his profession. Hatim Taie was awrded the honourable name in Arabian Hospitality. Hazra Ali (as) was awarded the name by Rasool e karim (SAW) as Khatum ul Aulia.. That totally does not mean that there will be no more Pehlawans in the world or Hospitality will never be there. We all know that there have been many more Aulias Allah after Hazrat Ali (as) and the spread of Islam specially in Sub-content is through saints and Aulias. (May God rest their soul in peace.)
Nabiyeen is plural of Nabi.
Regards
Khokhar Sahab,
Here contradiction starts. You are saying there is no end or Khatam concept…even Allah said it in Holy Quran. If it is like that then why Quran is not ending, why Quran is not changing? Quran is not changing because Allah said that I will take care of this book. Please take same for Prophet also. If this Ghulam Ahmad was real Prophet then why he not introduced his scripture. Why he used Quran and Prophet Muhammad to spread his evil thoughts.
Can you please tell us… how many Prophets died in insulting way???? I have no deep knowledge about Qadiyani but few things which are on record are in my knowledge.
Mr. Khokar writes in comment number 9:
“Yes Ahmadis are the most dedeicated humble lot in Islam. They whole heartedly believe that Rasool e Karim Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) is Khatum un Nabiyeen and Quran is their book of Guidane and all the books of Sahi Ahadis give the guide line that they are lead a very successful life in Islam with out any prejudice.”
Thanks for accepting that all the books of Sahih Hadith give the guideline that they are lead a very successful life in Islam with out any prejudice.
But Mr. Khokar, your this sentence has increased the confusion in my mind.
Allah says in Qur’an:
O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, He is the Apostle of God and Khatam-un-Nabiyeen. And God is Aware of everything.” (Surah Al Ahzab 33.40)
We differ on the meaning of ‘Khatam-un-Nabiyeen’. OK I will not insist that you take my words as the meaning of ‘Khatam’. Let’s take some guidance from Sahih Hadith, on which you and me both have no disagreement:
Six authentic (Sahih) hadith books include:
1) Sahih Bukhari
2) Sahih Muslim
3) Sunan Abu Dawood
4) Sunan Al Tirmidhi
5) Sunan Al Sughra (Sunan Nasai)
6) Sunan Ibn-e-Maja
I will not take any hadith from any book other than listed above. Now please read the following:
Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW said:
“In My Ummah, there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me.”
(Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)
Since Hazrat Muhammad knew that there would be false claims of prophethood after him, so he added ‘there is No Prophet after Me” sentence to clear any ambiguity among Muslims. My confusion has gone. Thanks to Allah but what is your say on the above hadith? Thanks.
Khokar, I request you not to say that the hadith I mentioned is not authentic. Otherwise very less options will be available for me to continue the discussion. And please do not answer the question like you did in comment number 35. Please do not present a tafseer against a simple word.
I am waiting for your reply Mr. Khokar. Please enlighten me. Thanks.
Dear Mustafa,
Your comment number 38 refers
The meanings of ‘Khatmun’ and Nabiyeen have already been explained vide comment number 35. But you do not want the meanings with detail. Probably you are looking for its literal meanings. Any how once again the meanings in brief are here;
• KHATAMUN means one who is the Greatest, par excellence.
• And NANIYEEN is plural of Nabi. Nabi is one who receives the revelation from God for the people among whom he has been sent.
Regards
Comments 38 -Mustafa Says:
July 20th, 2008
[Khokar, I request you not to say that the hadith I mentioned is not authentic. Otherwise very less options will be available for me to continue the discussion. And please do not answer the question like you did in comment number 35. Please do not present a tafseer against a simple word.]
Please stay advised that ‘None of my comments says any thing about ethnicity of any Ahadis’ because so for we have not discussed any thing about any Hadis.
How I can be labelled that I refuted it?
Please reconcile.
Regards
Although I am not in favor of discussing things that are controversial, still I am presenting literal meanings of the word
Meaning 1:
Khatam = Last, Final,
Meaning 2:
Khatam = Seal, Stamp
If we take the first meaning of the word, there would be no confusion remained in our minds. However, for the sake of knowledge we take the meaning of the second word.
You know what is the good practice when we pack things? We put a seal on the pack to prevent insertion to or removal of things from the pack. Similarly, Allah sealed this very responsibility of prophethood once Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) was given the title of seal. No new prophets to come after him, the only man who will return from Jannah is Hazrat Isa (AS). Now you will probably say that why Hazrat Isa (AS) is coming if the prophethood is sealed? The answer is because he will not be introducing any new Shariah, instead he will follow Hazrat Muhammad (SAW). He will offer prayers as a follower of Hazrat Imam Mehdi (RA). He is not a new prophet in simple words!
Now please do not indulge in further arguments on meaning of word ‘Khatam’ as we both know the outcome, just answer my question in post # 37.
A Khokar Says:
July 21st, 2008
Please stay advised that ‘None of my comments says any thing about ethnicity of any Ahadis’ because so for we have not discussed any thing about any Hadis.
How I can be labelled that I refuted it?
Please reconcile.
OK Khokar, again I ask you to please answer:
What is your belief on the authenticity of Sahih Hadith books, the names of which are mentioned in my earlier posts. Please present your views in very simple words, as my power of understading is not very good. you can either say, the Sahih ahadith are not authentic, or you can say that the Sahih ahadith are authentic.
Dear Mustafa, Dr Alshaer and friends,
[Mustafa comments number 37 refers]
You have given the reference of comments number 9. Which is wrong but I think you meant Comments number 29 because matter of comments, in reference, pertains to number 29.
You are asking me to put the case of ‘Khatum un Nabiyeen’ on one side and want to go the subsequent tracks of Ahadis pertaining to Dajjal business, and issue of ‘I am the last prophet and there will be no prophet after me’ etc. I think we must resolve this Khatum Nabiyeen business first and then consider any thing else later on.
KHATUMUN NABIYEEN
KHATUMUN NABIYEEN issue pertains to Surah Al-Ahzab and we have to see the back ground of this Surah. What were the circumstances that under which this surah was revealed and why this matter has come in here; that Allah has to declare it that Rassol e Karim is Par excellence the greater than even all the previous Nabis (khatumun Nabiyeen). This verse number 40 being part of this Surah says; [33:40] “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
Here the believers are being addressed tauntingly that Muhammad (SAW) is not the one who can be considered as father of people like you but he is some one who has much higher a status that you are considering.
We may not know but Surah Al- Ahzab has particular two major incidents at its back ground, which should be borne in mind and duly considered while deriving any meanings to any of its verse; particularly verse 40.
• ONE is the clarification about Hazrat Zaid (as), the slave and adopted son of Rasool e karim (SAW) and his wife Hazrat Zainub*. Zainub* was made to marry Zaid* but since Zainub* belonged to higher Arab status family and Zaid* has been a slave. He was unable to carry on with her as husband and had requested Rasool e Karim (SAW) to part with her. Since Hazoor had arranged this marriage so after Zainub* parted with Zaid*; Rassool e Karim (SAW) marry Zainub*. This incident was not going well among the hypocrites present among Muslims.
• SECOND was the issue that since Rasool Karim (SAW) has no real male progeny (means no real son was born to Hazoor except adopted son Zaid*). The hypocrites used to say tauntingly about this issue that in the absence of real son, Rasool e Karim probably will die with out an heir and his movement will dither out after him. Surah says that it was God’s own plan that Muhammad (SAW) should not have his male issue but this didn’t mean that he would be issue less since he was the spiritual father of whole of the mankind.
Allah admonishingly reveals in verse 40 that says; look you hypocrites; [33:40] “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
All of us are required to read and study the verse of this Surah with out any preconceived ideas or any concocted myths attached to it and it should be read in its true context only; after duly digging out the back ground and not at the face of it as superfluously. I assure you; there will be no confusion or any ambiguity left; what so ever.
With best of regards
(* May Allah be pleased with them all)
In Comments number 44
When I say no ambiguity or confusion left; what so ever means that; unnecessary escalation of intriguing business on the issues of Rassol e karim (SAW) being the ‘last prophet’ or ‘no profit after him’ and creating a hyper tension like situation in the society; the need simply does not arise.
——————————–
Love for all, Hatred for None
There was a good reason why I decided not to engage further in this dialogue.
Here are some of my observations from this exchange so far here:
1). The very basics understanding of what it means to be a Muslim and the faith of Islam is different from the movement of the Ahmadiyya’s/Qadiani’s beliefs.
2).It is also interesting to note that when questions are addressed to the members of the Ahmadiyya movement, Arabic words are dissected and references are made to further confuse a person that does not understand Arabic.
3). When questions are asked if Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani claimed himself to be a “prophet,messaih, mehdi”, further confusion is created of the doubt that he could have been. like the reference by A Khokar and other members of his group. Negatio
4). The number of Ahmadiyyas/Qadiani’s members has been another issue. First we are told the number is 3 million and then it jumps by leaps and bounds. The statement by A Khokar was a Freudian slip. I would ask the members of Ahmadiyya movement, A). can they share with us all, the “prophecy” by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani and others of how the number of the Ahmadiyya members would grow leap and bounds? I just love the fuzzy math presented and it sure gives me a chuckle. B). Can they also share of how the Jamaat deceived innocent Bosnians in Europe in trying to increase membership?
5). Last major issue is, what is the Shahada (declaration of faith) of the Ahmadi’s/Qadiani’s? Please do not just give parts of it, and share the whole Shahada. Selective memory will not suffice.
Frankly it does not matter to me of what people believe in. Religion/faith is all about free choice of will. Key here to remember is that there is no Compulsion in Islam. My beef with these people is that they continue to deceive people and this very deception is the reason why Muslims have raised objections to this Ahmadi’s/Qadiani’s. This is not a judgment on my part but the reality that has been addressed by so many other Muslim scholars.
I have another issue with A Khokar in his writings on this site and I will address that separately with an article he wrote while back; in reference to labeling Muslims as “Jews” in the Northwest Frontier. It is a case of taking ideas from the works of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani and how the Ahmadiyya movement brings up these issues to further confuse and deceive people.
I have said my peace and May Allah have Mercy on all of us, ameen.
Allah knows best!
Dear Tariq Sahib,
I can see that you have been here on this website and keep on initiating some Islamic issues; average one per month. You have previously asked for the total numbers of Ahmadiyya Jammat. At the moment exact figures are not at hand. We need to wait for few more days when the figures will be released at Ahmadiyya Annual Convention- Jalsa Salaana UK being held at the site Hadeeqatul Mahdi- UK from 25 July to 27 July 2008.
But does this number matters? It is the presence of Imam e Zammana that should matter us the most.
Any how Seeing is believing; You may walk in, in any Jammat e Ahmadiyya centre and ask for the relevant information. I think they should be more than happy to provide you with any information.
There is Ahmadiyya TV channel being telecasted through out the world. Please find the channel information in your country. It is all free and in so many languages. Any how you can also have on you PC on line. Here is the website address. Please do tune in and look for yourself; especially during Jalsa Salana-25-27 July 2008 which will be telecasted… LIVE.
MTA- Muslim TV Ahmadiyya International on line:
Link: http://www.alislam.org/index-mta.php?p=wm&s=300&l=ur
With best of regards
Dr Alshaer,
Your comments number 46.
I did correct the figures in comment number 34 the information that I had at hand. As I have already said in comment number 47. Exact figure will be released with in few days and I will bring that thing for you. Please wait.
But as I have told to Mr Tariq; does the numbers should really matter for us. And what should be the tentative largest figure in our mind that may convince us that Ahmadiyya claim is correct. Dr Alshaer, I think the numbers does not matter at all; it is the quality which matters most. The truth and quality at hand is that ; there is Imama e Zammana here knocking at our doors and we are shutting our doors, ears and hearts; on flimsy pretexts?
Your kind attention is invited to comments number 44. I will request that you please carry out research on the verses and back ground of Surah Al- Ahzab in the light of given comments as a good student of ‘Comparative studies in religions’ with a free mind or any preconceived ideas; No coloured glasses and see that what does this tell us? What was the necessity that Allah has to admonish the Hypocrites like this? Look you Hypocrite [33:40] “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets ( Khatumun Nabiyeen par excellence)and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
Our all the bickering and deriving the wish full meaning, just to put some body down will all seen going and thrown out of the window.
Any how when we believe in a LIVING GOD; we should not worry about; when some body even forges lie against Allah. Need less to repeat that Allah clearly says in Al-Haqqah: [69:44] “And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to US,”[69:45] “We would, surely, have seized him by the right hand”. Allah o Akber!
But pitty is that we love to pose as God? (Naozbillah)
Ahmadis are totally not bothered if they are persecuted or some thing;
Ubaid ullah Aleem comes to mind;
[Oas kay naam peh marrain khanna; ub aehzaz humarra!]
——————————–
Love for all, Hatred for None
Tariq Sahib,
We were carrying out a discussion and I did invite you vide comments number 13 to please come forward that this candle was initially lit by you.
Thanks for your kind appearance. I shall again invite you to go through some books which may throw some light that how Jesus* travelled Eastward after having gone through the ordeal of Crucifixion and duly saved by Allah. Allah says in Al-Nisa’ [4:157] “ And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.” [4:158] “On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.”
Number of books and articles which come handy are available on line for your research:
Link; http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
What I understand that since Muslim Ummah also had gone along with Christian concept of Jesus physical ascension to heaven and we are also aware of the facts that normally all such like researches are invariably carried out by western peoples. Here the concept of Jesus ascension to heaven was also in between; so it prevented them to carry out researches for Jesus Eastward journey and hence no worth while research has been carried out in this regard. Any how various information is now coming to light.
In case of Muslims; owing to the lack of knowledge, iterest and dearth of resources at hand; Muslims have rarely volunteered themselves to carry out such researches like pursuing the long trails of Jesus* from Palestine to Kashmir, digging the old records, travelling and meeting people and sifting through the book and libraries. History shows Mums remained happy in their own little world and preferred the desk jobs at the most.
———————————-
Love for all, hatred for None
In Comments number 49
In last sentance; Please read Muslims for Mums.
Thanks
Claim is an offensive terminology to express legitimate and illegitimate belongings and shares.
Authentication, verification and validation are the main stay of any such grievances, reservations and demand so to justify the request on grounds of evidences, facts, figures, data and ground realities which are self dependent on source, font and foundation ,relying at essentiality pillar of credibility ,authority and trustworthiness.
Claims emerging from platforms of sources that are deficient in terms of these necessary precursors are again perceived in the light of ethical logical, natural, caste, cadre, binding’s belongings, religious and every such element that require essential order of interpretation.
Under the domain of such restrictive and compulsive horizon of premises, any claim that is beyond the margins of acceptability of interpreted thoughts does not gain access in the books of reliability and credibility as school of thoughts.
Classically claim has a potential built-in tendency that may only takes off from the runway of existing base as object, subject, theme, thesis and entity, which is yet to be declare or demanded.
It is this potentially vacant entity that gives way to the claimer to accomplish the desired motive legitimately if he is a real owner and illegitimately if he has a covert motive.
Creation of school of thoughts under such existing theme and entity is a safe and secure pathway as acceptance to own is already in practice where as defiance is only at the level of interpretation, which is always the portfolio of intellects and scholarly beings .
Under such open field of already ripened fruit as acceptance, the working strategy of such schools relies on slot that are below the level of interpreting things thereby increasing the number of followers in the name of school of thoughts by sprinkling, wean, women and wealth whereas encountering the minds and thoughts by derangement of continuous false propagation of concepts thereby destabilizing and creating a fuss as controversy in discussion, so to derail the concepts, thus engaging the scholars on other side .
In order to accomplish such motive almost every modalities of platform are engaged so to route the motive from every side thereby refueling the concept of school from every dimensions as supply line.
Such congruent strategy in my opinion is in conductivity at this platform also in which Mr. Tariq at one end is floating ideas in the format of concepts of qadianism to aware the visitor of their belief and practices whereas people like Mr. Khokar, who definitely seems to be on assignment to question, validate the controversy as discussion and opinion.
It is requested to the Administrator, to hold such discussion from the platform as it’s troublesome for us to hear such insane ideas that are clear reflection of “Tauheen –e-Risaalat (sawaw).
Dear Dr Razahaider sahib,
It is really a pleasure to find such a beautiful premise to give out your feelings that some how you are bit perturb to find such on going discussion on the topic of Imam e Mahdi. Sorry for inconvenience.
But with due respect; would you not like that, this riddle is resolved to some extent. Ignorance and miss understanding, primarily due to lack of knowledge are touching its heights. Lives of thousands of families are at stake. They are displaced and wondering about, out side their home land. Hundreds of Ahmadis have been put behind bars in Pakistan for simply declaring the basic Islamic credo. La Illa ha illullah, Muhammad dar Rasool Allah;or for saying Asalaam o alaikum to their neighbours or were caught saying prayers.
Any how; if present day Muslims are defunct and subjected to Allah’s wrath for their ignorance and transgressions like the previous denominations and if tomorrow we find that Ahmadis are right in their claim; then what?
It is matter of giving the priority to life here or life here after?
[Ab koie chou kar keyoun naheen atta udhar siray ka jeevan ang]
[Jaantey hain, per kiya batlain; lag gai keyun pervaaz main chup?]
With best of regards
Mr. Khokar please do not deviate the theme by molding it towards a sectarian domain.
Any assumption as regard to arrival of imam-e-asr can be postulated if you desire as it is never the point of ignition and retaliation for me and any body in the Islamic principle of ideology and roz-e-hashr.
My point of segregation and disown is simple and is understandable even at the level of below average profile of intelligence quotient, whereas you stand smarter than what can be predicted.
Things may be riddle for you or you shall have free rights to roam around and dig facts and figures as per your thoughts but please do not indulge in dictating your version of Islamic ideology and doctrine by manipulating and expressing your false perception and interpretation, as the portfolio of your school of thoughts have already been a declared school of lost and deviated anti Islamic missionaries.
Neither we as Muslim are ignorant nor have such false perception in the form of ignorance and lack of knowledge or misconception.
Assimilation in the form of feeding only takes place where obedience becomes the faith.
Your version of thoughts is a sick idea that has been discarded equally by all authoritative domains.
We as Muslim are very well aware of the facts and ultimate fate and life after death and do not need your misleading discussion in this regard.
Your reservation in regard of arrest is again based on non factual bias and malafide intentions, as ahmedis are as equal in rights as a citizen if they disclose their identity.
They are allowed to worship and practice their way as been suggested in their school and are practicing such bindings in their own mosque ,one of which is just few meters from my house .
However by constitution they have been forbidden to preach their wrong concept whereas it’s the prerogative of the state to ensure the writ in this regard and hold such factors that are destabilizing Islam in any way as Islam is the primary religion in Pakistan.
Khokar,
Your detailed explaination of the verse in comment # 44 does not in anyway justifies the claim of Mr. Mirza. By the way, for your information, commentary of Qur’an came to us through and supported by authentic narrations. So, if you are again referring me to these explainations provided by the narrators, than please answer me. My simple question for which I am still to have a very short and simple answer:
Do you believe on the authenticity of Sahih Ahadith or not. I am still sticking to my question raised. Thanks.
Dear Dr. Razahaider,
Yes; I understand very much that same stance toward the ‘very sick idea’ of Jesus (as) was also upheld by the Judaic previously; when Jesus (as) declared himself as their reformer. The grand, grand Jewish priests were failed to even recognise him and they put him on the cross to die a humiliating death as an apostate. Only it was left to Quran e Karim to tell us that how they transgressed and what was the fate that they met?
Fear is; History may not repeat it’s self?
Any how:
Aap ki apni adalat ki jiay jo faisla
Magar woh faisla;ik akhari taqdeer ka
Many thanks for your time
Regards
Khokar,
Look what your own mirza sahib said about this verse:
“Can such an unfortunate fabricator who himself claim prophethood and messengership believe in Holy Quran, and can such a person who believes in Quran and believes in the verse [wa laakin Rasoolullah wa Khatam-un-Nabiyeen] as the word of God, that I am also a prophet and messenger after Holy Prophet SAAW?” (Anjam-e-Atham, Roohani Khazain vol.11 p.27)
Dear Mustafa,
Thank you very much for your time that you took to go through comments at 44.
As you have asked; I must say that all the Ahadis can be called authentic; provided they are called Sahi ahadis and do not contradict Quran e Karim. The verdict of Quran e karim comes first. Since all the Ahadis describe the conduct of Hazoor e Akram (SAW), which has invariably been in the light of Quran; so all the Ahadis called as sahi ahadis must support the Quranic stand or verdict.
One is ought to reject any hadis told to us which contradicts Quran’s verdict.
In case you do not agree to this then there must be no hard feelings. I have tried to describe and share what all is good with me. Allah directs vide Al-Shura and we take refuge with Allah that; [42:15] “….Allah is our Lord and your Lord. For us is the reward of our works, and for you the reward of your works. There is no quarrel between us and you. Allah will gather us together, and to Him is the return.”
Regards
Dear Mustafa,
Your comments at 56
[wa laakin Rasoolullah wa Khatam-un-Nabiyeen] as the word of God, that I am also a prophet and messenger after Holy Prophet SAAW?” (Anjam-e-Atham, Roohani Khazain vol.11 p.27)]
If the man has come from God and he claims this; then what is the problem? He is perfect in claiming this. If we find him convincing, as thousands of other people are finding his Jammat on the touch stone provided by Quran and authentic Ahadis; please do accept him otherwise reject him by all means; There is no compulsion in religion and ‘truth’ stand clear of ‘falsehood’.
With best of regards
On comment # 57
Ok so you are now claiming that the two ahadith mentioned by me earlier and taken from the two authentic books are fabricated and false and contradict with Quran? Hmmmm
On Comment # 58
Very ‘ill’ogical. Does not make sense.
Ok now let’s take another comment of your Mirza about this verse:
After the declaration in the Holy Quran “Khatam-al-Nabiyyin”, the coming of another Prophet, whether a new one or the coming of an earlier one, is completely forbidden” (Izala Auham, p. 761).
What do you say on the above?
For other readers:
I disagree with the later part of Mirza’s comment. I mean I believe that Hazrat Isa (AS) will come to this world from heavens again. And I believe that Mirza was not a prophet nor he was a Messiah. And he was also not the Imam Mahdi (RA).
Another blow: Mirza wrote in his one book:
The 21st verse [33:40] is this: “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets.”
The verse declares openly that after our Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) there will not come in this world any other Prophet. (Izala Auham, p. 614).
Your say on the above comment of your own Mirza.
Other readers:
Please note that I am now taking Ghulam’s writing from a site belong to one sect of these ahmedis. I never thought that research on the internet about Qadyanis/Lahoris/Ahmedis is so easy.
Khokar:
Some more writings of Mirza:
- Similarly in reference to verse “alyauma akmaltu lakum deenakum” (This day have I perfected for you your religion) and the verse “walaakin rasulallah wa Khatam al-nabiyyin” (but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets) clearly shows that the line of Prophethood has been concluded and sealed by our Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and these clearly show that our Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets. (Tuhfa Golarwiyah, p. 51).
- The words of the Holy Quran are final and in its Glorious verse “wa laakin rasulallah wa Khatam al-nabiyyin (but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets) confirms that in truth and in fact that on our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) Finality of Prophethood was made. (Kitab-ul-Bariya, p. 184.)
- In the circumstances when Allah has issued an edict that there will not be any prophet coming after thee then contrary to that command would He send Jesus. (Ik Galti ka Izalah, p. 14).
- The Quran clearly declared that Prophet Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, yet my unjust opposition intend and attempt to prove that Hazrat Isa (Jesus) (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the seal of the Prophets and they assert that the “Masih” mentioned in the Sahih Muslim etc. referred to as “Nabi” would be in fact a true prophet in the factual religious terminology. (Kitab al-Bariya, p. 191).
- If Allah has truthfully declared and the promise (”Khatam al-Nabiyyin” contained in the verse relating to the seal of the Prophets) is correct then after the death of Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Angel Gabriel has forever been forbidden to bring prophetic revelations. (Izala Auham, p. 577).
Mustafa,
Initially you said that please go slowly with me that you know a little about religion etc;
Now you are coming up with lot many references etc, etc. A usual stance, like Yanabi.com. It was your false pretext and phoney call; a conduct unbecoming so before this that your false civility takes a usual turn to arrogance; I think I must leave.
Allah directs to all the righteous people to remain at guard. In Al-An`am [6:68] “ And when thou seest those who engage in vain discourse concerning Our Signs, then turn thou away from them until they engage in a discourse other than that. And if Satan should cause thee to forget, then sit not, after recollection, with the unjust people.”
Many Thanks
Khokar,
I never posted lengthy posts, I never discussed several topics, I never involved in useless details.
1) After I realized that you and me differ on the meaning of Khatam un Nabiyyeen, I thought not to indulge myself in that, but you, despite my several requests, attempted to establish your point of view through useless details and that proved nothing.
2) I just wanted to find out what your beliefs are, regarding Qur’an and Sahih Hadith. Indeed, I just knew a very little about Qadiyanis but now in two days, by Blessing of Almighty Allah (SWT), very easily distinguish between Qadiyanis and Muslims. You failed to answer my very simple questions after several requests clearly. In the end, after assuming that you do not believe on some of the Sahih ahadiths that do not favor your religion, I presented some views of your Mirza sahib.
3) Lastly, I did not put lengthy posts, instead, just put quotes, of your own Mirza sahib related to just a single topic. I am very comfortable to read and understand straight words of anyone, and I think many of us also think like that.
4) I believe that Qur’an is very easy to understand, it does not need long arguments in favor of its verses. In Surah Qamar Allah says: “And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?”
Now your words (except Khokar instead of Dr Alshaer):
Thank you very much for your time.
But Khokar sahib abhee say;
Abhi to Raat baqi thi; Abhi tu Baat baqi thi?
I came up to share with you only, which I knew the best.
[Shaed is rah peh koi aur bhi rahee ain–
Dhoop main chalta rahoun; saeay bichataa jaoun]
Any how I remain obliged. Your kind participation on other subjects will be much appreciated.
Mustafa, may Allah bless you for your efforts, ameen.
I knew in time that A Khokar would take this stance, that he has to take leave and make accusations against Muslims. Like the false leaders that he follows, they are unable to take the challenge when references are quoted from their own books. Just like Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani and all their so called “leaders” their lies and inconsistencies surface. It is all matter of time and events that pass.
Let this be a lesson to us all!
Holy Prophet Mohammad SAAW said:
“In My Ummah, there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals),
each of whom will claim to be a prophet,
But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me.”
(Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)
May Allah guide us all, ameen.
Dear Friends Mustafa, Dr. Razahaider,
There has been a stark show of hypocrisy. I only knew that next Mustafa would have turned to arrogance and throwing of filth; the only weapon which is best known to the opponents of Ahmadiyyat thus turning this site into schism and malice. I just wanted to avoid that; This site is a good site and must stay clean which is serving many a people for a good cause of spreading balanced information. Its services must not be abused.
My duty was to show you the right path; which I hope that I have served; the right path which God Almighty has sets for his chosen peoples. This is Ahmadiyya era and Allah has chosen Ahmadiyyat to lead the mankind from now onward under the banner of Islam for His chosen religion bestowed through Muhammad (SAW). [5:54] “ O ye who believe! Who so among you turns back from his Religion, then let him know that Allah will soon bring in his stead a people whom He will love and who will love Him and who will be kind and humble to the believers, and hard and firm against the disbelievers. They will strive in the cause of Allah and will not fear the reproach of a fault-finder. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whomsoever He pleases and Allah is Bountiful, All-Knowing.”
For Ahmadis the friend ship of Allah is more than enough a protection for his servants.
I must thank you for listening to the message. I hope it will also pricks your conscious some time down the road. Leave you with the prayer that; Allah may lead you on the right path. Ameen
Thank you very much Dr Alshaer, May Allah bless you as well.
Khokar,
Despite disagreement, I never accused you of filthy statements. I never used abusive language against Mirza sahib because I believe that abusive language should only be used in front of those who changed their belief rather than against those who are born with the wrong belief. If I did use any comments abusing you of your Mirza sahib and you are hurt, then I apologize.
Quoting your own Mirza sahib is “arrogance and throwing of filth”? If it is filth then go and check your own belief.
If someone tells me the Sahih Hadiths of my beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAW) or quote me a verse from Qur’an I will never say that the person is throwing filth. That is the difference between me as a Muslim and you as a Qadiyani.
Anyway, please let’s stop this discussion here, and move to other topics. I always read your comments with interest and on several topics (other than Islam) in favor of your views and will continue to do so as I do not believe on discriminating on the grounds of religion, specifically, for those who are born with other non-Islamic beliefs.
May Allah guide us all.
Mr. Khokar that’s what I pointed out that you and Mr. Tariq seems to be on illegitimate assignment to utilize the port for your undeclared motive.
You see it’s very common among intelligent and humble personalities to inquire the desire questionnaire in an indirect address.
By utilizing such policies one give reaction time to concerned individual to accomplish the task, while providing a medium to float desired thoughts to rest of the listener regarding intentions whereas on the other hand keeping the target subject from being annoyed and disgruntle.
This discussion on the plateau of concept was neither a bleak show nor hypocrisy.
It was the theory of faith and conceptual interpreted acceptance from different horizon that may settle the dust of wrong practices and insane ideology.
Under such interpreted conceptual and faithful acceptance arrogance is always the dawn of pride.
Astonishingly your habitual trait to interpret things wrongly has again diverted your restricted thoughts towards the same reverting attitude to disclaim and sprinkle floated discussion and its theme as filth.
Every site is a good site if you achieve the goal and desire resisting in your mind.
You see khokar this is the theme of Islam as umbrella where people of different schools unite on the platform of single opinion as Muslims and disembark all those that create fuss.
It is not necessary that one should indulge the discussion only through the platform of religious slogans and signs.
The point of concerned for people like you should be that it’s the unanimously owned flag of Islam as Muslims, on a single logically evaluated and owned flag bearer of humanity ,Islam and every sight and scenes of existing elements ,The Muhammad (s.a.w.a.w), last messenger of god, that will always resist and disembark your false faith wherever you go .
Ki Muhammad (S.A.W.A.W) say Wafa tu nay toe hum tairay hein
Yeh Jaha cheez hai kia Loeho qalam tairay hain
Hi everyone, I have done research on the topic you guys are discussing here. This topic is on my agenda, I will write on it in very near future. Please check my blog for update on this and other topics related to Mirza’s writings.
Please read the Article I have written on the book ” Removal of a misunderstanding (Error)by Mirza.
All comments are welcomed, positive or negative.
http://crankthatskunk.wordpress.com/repeat-of-an-error-by-mirza-quadiani/